Podcast transcript
Paul Sonneveld
Hi, and welcome to this live episode of Marketplace Masters proudly presented by MerchantSpring, your premier source for marketplace analytics for agencies and vendors. I'm Paul Sonneveld, your guide to today's discussion. And in this episode, we'll delve into the innovative strategies that empower vendors to maintain profitability and avoid products falling into that cannot realize a profit or CRAP category.
Joining me in this conversation is Will Haire. Will is the founder of BellaVix and CEO, of a full-service marketplace marketing agency for direct-to-consumer retail brands who want to aggressively grow sales on the world's largest marketplaces like Amazon and Walmart. With over 12 years as a marketer, he has worked with e-commerce businesses for many years in leading strategic planning, implementation, and technical execution of marketing strategies for products across all Amazon business segments. With responsibilities for channel growth strategies and achieving revenue and margin goals, his portfolio includes companies like Instant Pot, Pyrex, Duramae, Think, and Outward Hound.
In his spare time, Will is a father of two. I'm not sure that's truly spare time, but it handles most of the planning for the family activities, which he loves. And when he's not parenting, he really appreciates a good coffee or whiskey, depending on the time of day, of course. Will, it's an absolute pleasure to have us with you today.
Will Haire
Good to be here, Paul. Great introduction. And thanks for having me on the show. I'm looking forward to diving into some CRaP policy and talking about what vendors can do to avoid it.
Paul Sonneveld
Excellent. Well, let's get right into it. Can you explain, like, what is Amazon's CRaP policy entails? I mean, for those that sort of missed my intro, CRaP cannot realize a profit. I think that's correct. So what is the Amazon's policy on that? And how does it impact vendors?
Will Haire
I mean, to summarize it, pretty much your products are not profitable on Amazon through the 1P relationship that's established. And I'll kind of get into a lot of the reasons that could cause this. But when your products become CRaPped, essentially, Amazon will no longer place orders for those products, meaning brands are going to lose sales and rankings.
Subscribe and save will stop that's under like the RO policy which is slightly different but either way when you're CRaPped out you're no longer to be taken subscribe and save then other marketing activities like pay-per-click, promotions, everything's pretty much going to grind to a halt. And it really impacts brands. But for you guys to consider, for you to know, it only affects a single product. So each product has its own profit margin, essentially. So, you can have a variation that gets hit by CRaP while the rest of them don't for some of the reasons that we'll go over. And to kind of jump into that.
So what are the causes for for CRaP? Like, why do vendors get hit with this policy? How does it affect profit margins? The biggest reasons we have experienced with brands that we work with is poor distribution, poor map policy. I'm going to call that out as the number one. And we find with a lot of vendor relationships, they tend to have a lot of retail brands and retail brands that don't prioritize Amazon, for example, will have their products and brick and mortar and they may be negotiating with other marketplaces.
And if your prices are being undercut to what Amazon has, Amazon is going to lower that price. And when it gets to a point where they're no longer making money, they're going to hit you with that CRaP policy and they're going to slash everything out, and then you're no longer going to be eligible to pretty much fulfill that order, the traditional way you're doing it on Vendor Central. Some other things to consider.
Paul Sonneveld
I just want to interrupt you. I want to get some of the more basic questions out of the way before we go.
Will Haire
Oh, yeah. Sure.
Paul Sonneveld
I just want to say like, so when Amazon determines your profit cannot realize a profit, What is the Vendor Manager like the guy inside Amazon or the girl inside Amazon? What is the specific metric that they look at? Is it net PPM? Is it a raw margin? What is their metric? And how do you as a vendor, how do you find out that you've been CRaPped? How does that work?
Will Haire
Beautiful. It's going to be your net PPM. That's how they measure profitability on Vendor Central. So that'll be the number one way when you hit below a certain threshold. it pretty much automatic. You're going to get an email and that listing is going to get suppressed and become unavailable. And then you are you are in the CRaP policy conundrum.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah. And is there a time frame that Amazon looks at this? I mean, because we may all be kind of deep into that zone maybe for a day or two. I mean, is it a 30-day average? What sort of do you have a view on the time window that Amazon looks at in order to be like reasonable and fair around this?
Will Haire
Yep. I'm not sure the time window that they actually use to leverage this. But obviously we've seen if it's consistent and sales velocity is low, it's not going to shake. So it'll just stay deactivated. And that's when you have a problem. And it'll vary. Sometimes you can get these fixed right away within a week. If it's a deeper issue, maybe it's tied to poor return rates or just excess inventory, then you're going to have to work through it and get creative with how you kind of work through it.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, okay, great. So you started to get into, I just wanted to sort of get some of those questions out of the way, you started getting to characteristics and all of that, you know, what are the, because I want to pick all of those a little bit more, but what are some of the most common characteristics that you see of products that fall victim to this categorization?
Will Haire
Beautiful. Like I said, the type of products off the bat, before we get into what causes it, they tend to be like low margin products, low price point products. So like say anything under $15 is going to have is probably not a good product for Vendor Central unless the margins are really phenomenal. Heavy items that are expensive to ship, those type of items tend to not do so well. And then obviously between your terms and everything else, they just may not be good products. So generally, it's consumer product goods, under $15 price point, low margin items, or just heavy products to ship with low margins.
Paul Sonneveld
I think what you're saying is the shipping and fulfillment cost is disproportionately high compared to the price, right? It's eating up a lot of that, a lot of that margin.
Will Haire
Exactly.
Paul Sonneveld
Which sort of makes me wonder, like, I mean, a lot of these products would have been kind of maybe unprofitable to start with or do you find that typically Amazon in its enthusiasm to expand its catalogue takes on a whole lot of products, starts selling it, but then realizes, oops, or maybe our, you know, fulfillment costs have gone up a little bit, all of a sudden, they gone from like, you know, great product, great repeat purchase, you mentioned subscribe and save, and all of a sudden now we're into like, what was it ever? You know, was it was it was it always a good idea to start with, and then things become CRaP? Or is it actually maybe, you know, poor due diligence on behalf of Amazon or the vendor at the start of the process?
Will Haire
I think it's going to be a little bit, almost a little bit of everything, but what I will say typically and in the past, I think this is changing. Amazon was really aggressive with getting products in Vendor Central and onto their platform for a long time. So, for a while, we've seen lots of brands start off on vendor and just like throw everything on the wall. And, you know, Amazon would make purchases, but since then it's less frequent, but you still see like born to run as an example where you can essentially create your own purchase order through this program, but you got to sell all those units.
And what we have seen is vendors create super large purchase orders being a bit more aggressive than we'd recommend. And then they get stuck and then they get hit with this CRaP policy. And then they have a bunch of inventory tied up that they have to get creative on how they're going to liquidate it and get it out of Amazon. So I'll say some of it is on Amazon, but I do think the tides are shifting. Some of it could be on the vendor. We've seen just poor negotiations. We had a pet company a while back who they were or vendor only brand. So they couldn't sell off of Amazon and everything was reliant on Amazon.
We lost our Vendor Manager, so we had no point of contact. And we had a lot of trouble raising prices, or sorry, decreasing our cost in order to improve profitability and keep funneling business into Amazon. And because of all these restrictions that fortunately that seller had to back out and they went in to Seller Central under another brand because the brand was completely owned by Amazon so that example like just bad vendor agreement and then just not having good resources to resolve some of those issues.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, makes sense. So we talked about logistics and being a heavy burden in the P&L of a particular product, particularly when prices are low. Earlier, and I want to go back to that point around kind of retail products, distribution. I think we're really talking about, you know, pricing, right? And what price can Amazon realize for a product on its marketplace while still or on its retail channel while still being competitive?
Will Haire
Exactly.
Paul Sonneveld
Can you talk to that a little bit more?
Will Haire
Yeah, I mean, so the things that Amazon is looking at, you kind of hit it on the head, like anything with high minimum quantities with low sales volume is so it's like sales and pricing tied together. And for us on the vendor side, it's going to be our cost to sell to Amazon. So, we obviously want to reduce that, that cost on our behalf. So, we have more margins to play with. Amazon wants that cost a little higher.
So products with minimum order quantity, heavy, bulky items, and uncompetitive terms and cost pricing are some of the major issues. And then the high customer return. So some of it is pricing, some of it's cost, and some of it's the quality of the product. And then outside of some of those other stipulations, under $15, bulky and heavy. So there's kind of like a good middle ground where a certain product might make sense to be listed on Vendor Central.
Paul Sonneveld
Gotcha, gotcha. I just want to go back to it's kind of the policy and how Amazon works on that. So let's say I get up a notification, this product that I've got is, Amazon determines it's CRaP. It's an interesting acronym.
Will Haire
I know.
Paul Sonneveld
Is that it? Or what are my options, right? So can I, is it a little bit like your seller account is now at risk, and you need to come up with a plan and show us what you can do or is there remediation that a vendor can implement to fix it?
Will Haire
So it'll vary. I'll give two scenarios. If you have a Vendor Manager, somebody is going to reach out to you, you'll have the ability to resolve this issue pretty quick, depending on what that issue is. If it's in a situation where it's just too heavy, and the costs aren't going to be able to come down. You know, you might have to consider drop shipping or having a hybrid solution where you're leveraging both seller and Vendor Central and you kind of have a product mix based on based on what's going to work best. So that is the first step.
So if we got a CRaP policy, and it's something we can't resolve, and we don't have an Amazon rep, The other thing to do is just shift that product over. So directly in the Vendor Central portal, you have the drop shipping option. So being able to kind of turn that on and fulfill the orders yourself would be an immediate fix while we work out some of the logistics. If you're already in a hybrid model, moving that product over to Seller Central and you know, fulfilled by merchant and then getting it into Amazon FBA is the second option.
And then outside of that, if you don't have a vendor rep, you're going to have to reach out to support and just start the customer service. And it just takes a lot longer going that route. We find that you get stuck in a lot of loops, and they're really sensitive about adjusting cost. So, there's a lot of a lot of back and forth. So having a Vendor Manager is great. But we're seeing a lot more vendors without Vendor Managers, even some that have really great sales. So it's just how we have to deal with it.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I've come from a long background of retail here. I guess it's not as simple as, does Amazon ever go to the extent where they go, right, your product has been CRaPped. You need to lower your cost price by 20% in the next seven days. Otherwise, we'll never order again. I guess, does it ever get that pointy in terms of the conversation or does it always stay at the high level, which is, we can do some things here and there and there. Sometimes maybe just reducing your cost is like the only option, right? A, does it happen? And B, I mean, I don't think there's many vendors out there that have got like lots of margin to play with to do that. But I just wanted to sort of saying your experience, do you see those sorts of things happen?
Will Haire
Yeah, we normally don't get somebody that's aggressive, like seven days 20% or that's it, you know, normally, they want to work with you. And I'm sure there's metrics that Vendor Managers are judged by that helps influence good behavior, of course. Normally, it's a conversation and a lot of it's like, a lot of it goes back and I’ll give you examples we have like a case study we work with an alarm clock manufacturer and they were crushing it on vendor doing really well and their top product for like over a decade was doing really well but we started seeing Other sellers come into the marketplace at lower price points with very competitive items.
Some of their other third-party retailers were kind of getting aggressive and violating some MAP policies. And slowly but surely, our margins and also the cost to make the product went up over time as inflation and everything goes. And so what we ended up having to do is, we were fortunate that this vendor had a rep. So we were able to work directly with the rep and show our costs to say, hey, These are our costs. This is why we can't work together. And unless you guys want us off of the platform, we had a lot of sales. We had some leverage. This isn't going to work. And we ended up going back and forth. We negotiated.
I would say we constantly had to prove our costs by providing documentation. So it was a lot of like, OK, this is good. This is good. But can you go get this? Or we need costs for this. Or what about this? And long story short, it took around 30 days, which I think is pretty good. And we were able to resolve and get our costs reduced, which was great. We didn't get exactly what we wanted. We probably got like 60% of what we asked for, but it was enough to give us some breathing room to resolve that CRaP policy issue and kind of get into a good spot.
And now we are, geez, like two or three years later, and we do have a hybrid model in place where the vendor is on seller, sorry, vendor and Seller Central. And when these issues happen again, we just shifted over, start selling via FBA. And it's a lot smoother of a policy because the specifically in that category, it's become more competitive. So we've had to be more aggressive on pricing and obviously Seller Central gives us the ability to be more flexible as needed.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, great. Hey, I've just got a question coming in. I mean, just to remind our audience that it is a live show. So you can ask questions. I've got a question here from Austin, I'm just going to bring it up, because it speaks directly in terms of what do you do when your product is CRaPped out? So let's see.
So Austin, thank you for your question. He's asking if your product is CRaPped out, how do you get it back in order on order if Amazon won't accept and abort your run? Is there a way to do this without lowering costs? So we spoke about kind of the lowering cost is the easiest option, certainly from an Amazon point of view. But, you know, are there other levers? You know, what advice would you have for us?
Will Haire
Yeah, when it comes time to negotiate your terms, you'll want to include everything from depending on what the issue is. So if it's like, if it's a return rate, you're going to want your damage allotment to be increased. As an example, if it's the size and the weight of the item, you'll want to consider more efficient ways to getting that item to fulfillment centers. And that's going to be reducing your packaging. They have a program, Cyox ships in its own. Container essentially, which is a great way to kind of reduce costs and reduce that empty space in fulfillment centers, which will in turn give you better margins.
So essentially, like we kind of ran through like all the issues that will cost you to get CRaP policy. And if those are the issues, then you're just one by one, you need to pick what you can and can't resolve, you know, distribution, map policy enforcement, there are legal services out there that do a really great job at wrapping that up. We've worked with some major retailers that had tons of violations, and we they were able to resolve them in a year. It was really impressive. High customer returns. You'll want to figure out why we're getting high customer returns and resolve those issues. And then prove it to Amazon through ideally your Vendor Manager. If not, you're going to have to go through customer support. And that's just going to mean a lot of cases and a lot of patience.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I appreciate you answering Austin's question there.
Will Haire
Great question, Austin.
Paul Sonneveld
You know, we've talked a lot about, oh, what do you do when this happens? I guess the ideal scenario is to prevent it from happening in the first place. So, you know, the million dollar question here is, as a vendor, how can I be proactive about this? How can I spot risks, issues? Well, before I get that notification from Amazon, how do you work with your clients to make sure they're on top of this?
Will Haire
A couple ways is like annually you get to do your vendor negotiations and it's important to kind of monitor the market to understand where prices are going, what the competition looks like and are things changing, also your cost. So we've worked with a lot of vendors who even lost their manager and then they just gave up. They just stopped submitting cases, followed up, trying to get resources together. And we may be fortunate because we're an agency and we have resources were able to reach out to you. But that conversation needs to happen every year routinely just so you can make those adjustments. Because when you get a few years behind asking for such a large shift, and the alarm clock is the perfect case, we weren't able to get everything we asked. But we also waited like a decade to ask for some cost changes. So it just took a really long time.
So I would say, obviously, understand your distribution, map policy enforcement would be number one. And this is like a major reason we see a lot of brands do it. Your assortment, so bundling products together, like if it's not profitable because it's a low cost item or it's a single unit or it's super heavy, like how can we manage that assortment so that I have a better margin on it and it makes it easier? We have seen brands on Vendor Central just sell their bundles, you know, two, three, four packs, and they were all vendor, their single units were available on seller. And that that was kind of their model. And it worked because they had the margins on the bundles were Vendor Central made sense. And then they had their single units where there was just less margins able to work that out.
I'm a big proponent of the of some type of hybrid strategy. I like vendor seller because I think seller gives you a lot of bells and whistles, but their drop shipping option is good. And if as long as you have that ability to fulfill orders, you could kind of pick up a lot of that slack and not be as impacted as I think they refer to as direct fulfillment. I was called drop shipping. And then monitor customer returns would be the last thing. If you're getting a lot of returns, you need to figure out why before Amazon says, hey, you're exceeding all your limits and now you have to deal with us and it becomes a problem.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, for sure. And of course, just a reminder to our audience that within inside the Amazon Vendor Central console, when you log in, you'll see lots of profitability metrics by products, you'll see returns, all of that. Of course, you can get fancier and you get tools like MerchantSpring, but all that data is there for you inside Amazon Vendor as well.
Will, I just want to ask you a really dumb question. I should have asked this way at the start. And I've probably been the only person who doesn't know the answer to this. But we're talking about cannot realize a profit, right? Let's talk about net PPM. Does that mean Actually, your net PPM is zero, or it's just well below to five below the category average. So let's say category average on alarm clocks is running for Amazon at 30%. And you're sitting at 15. And therefore becomes sort of, you know, a return question in terms of working capital and the like for Amazon as opposed to negative profitability. I mean, do you mind just clarifying that whether really talking about zero net PPM or like well below category average?
Will Haire
Well below category average, at least that's been our experience. And I don't think that's a dumb question. I think that's a great question. But obviously, as you get closer to that negative mark, but we have seen products get CRaPped out that had a positive net PPM. But obviously, it wasn't enough to cover some of these other allowances that it was violating. And obviously, it led us to getting some CRaP notices and having to make changes.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, all right. Now, that's really useful to clarify, because obviously, I just spoke about people go to the Amazon Vendor Central, look at it, look at your net PPM. But of course, you don't want to just scan the column and go everything that's negative. Let's have a look at it. Or you really want to ask your Vendor Manager, hey, what is my what is the category average for the category that I'm trading in? So, you can benchmark your products against that. And you have, you know, you sort of work out where the biggest gaps are, because that's probably the products are going to be impacted based on what you're saying.
Will Haire
So we got a little hack off that, Paul, like if you're launching a new product, and you're not sure, our team will go on to FBA revenue calculator, essentially, and we'll punch in all the information for Amazon in terms of like our cost, freight information, and all that fun stuff. And if it shows a small or negative profit, then that product's probably not going to be right for Vendor Central.
So that's also It's a hack and it's time consuming if you have a super large catalog. But if you're curious and you have a hybrid model and you're like, Hey, you know, we're selling this product on our website. It does really well. We're considering expanding it to Amazon and other marketplaces. It could be a quick hack to be like, let me just punch in all the information here. If it's not going to be profitable on seller, it's probably not going to be profitable on vendor. It's not apples to apples. There's other nuances with like your agreement and stuff. It'll kind of get you a ballpark.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, gotcha. Gotcha. All right. I want to go back to one other topic. I want to go a little bit deeper, which is you know, let me just play out the scenario, right, as a vendor, I have a wonderful product I'm giving at the start, I was giving Amazon great margins, everyone's happy. And then that product starts to appear on Walmart and other products. And then Amazon is price matching. They're driving the price down. It may be even beyond my control because I've got poor distribution agreements. I think you mentioned at the start.
And all of a sudden, you know, my the average price that the product's being sold is just being down, down, down. And all of a sudden, guess what? I'm getting a credit notice. Um, that's a difficult problem to solve because it's kind of it's driven by the broader kind of distribution system and, and all of that. I know I've heard people talk about like, you know, change the product format or bundling and all of that to sort of get out of that. But what advice do you, how do you talk to your clients about that when that question comes up?
Will Haire
Yeah, I mean, you hit on the head with product variations and bundles, but I'll share a story. We actually in the last year to 18 months, we've moved three vendors from vendor to Seller Central. And two of them are no longer selling on vendor at all. So we have a beauty brand, I'll just share. They are in brick and mortar retail, they do really well, you'd recognize them. out of a lineup for sure. And we were selling on vendor and the same thing happened. And what it was like from a priority perspective, like Wholesale got all the attention because Wholesale was a beast. And then their DTC website outsold Amazon.
So we were third on the on the board of priorities. And because wholesale was their number one and they had national distribution, we caught like whenever they liquidated a product, whenever they ran a flash sale or something crazy, we were always getting hit with CRaP or they were taking down our listings. We had tons of resellers. It was just a hot mess. And we got to the point where we needed to control pricing. And that's what led this specific brand and others to come off of Vendor Central all together to say, hey, this isn't good for us.
We're going to move over to Seller Central because we have the ability to control pricing. And so what we did is we shifted over to Seller Central. And then they were working with a legal service to get some of these sellers removed and to clean up their distribution policy and having that, I say this all the time, your map policy is only as good as the enforcement of map policy.
So having a legal counsel to help enforce this helped out tremendously. So we cleaned up the catalog on that end, we got them on Seller Central, and then we lowballed the price to kind of get the market clean and take back control of the buy box. And then we worked our price back up. And we started selling units all through Seller Central at this point.
So there's lots of ways to go about it. People love vendor, you get paid up front. There's lots of benefits to Vendor Central, but it's not always going to be right for all the products and brands. And if you're having distribution issues, if you have my policy, if Amazon is not your Mecca, if you're not, if a lot of your sales aren't being generated from Amazon, you may want to consider just one of these hybrid policies because it is expensive and it takes time to clean up your distribution. But obviously there's benefits to owning. We have lots of contribution issues too, which drove us crazy.
Paul Sonneveld
Yeah, no, that's I mean, I think that the hybrid selling strategy is a whole topic to explore. I mean, it's very interesting. It's becoming very popular. I mean, personally, I would say, about two years ago, all the talk was about our get off vendor, move to seller, it was sort of a very sort of one-dimensional conversation. Now, it's becoming a lot more nuanced, right? How do you you know, have one foot in each? And how do you really maximize the opportunities before you through that hybrid model?
So actually, for anyone that's interested, I am doing a session on this quick plug, I think it is later on coming up in May. So keep an eye out for our like, you know, upcoming webinars page. I'm talking to Chris Turton about really taking that to the next level. We did an intro podcast last year, we're doing the next version on that, but very interesting topic.
Will, right here around the topic of CRaP and wrapping up, last question for me. How do you see this policy and Amazon's behavior evolve in this area over the next year? In particular, we see Amazon making all sorts of announcements on the fulfillment shipping costs on the seller side. That's probably a reflection of cost increases on their side, and I'm sure they're seeing that on the vendor side as well. I know they're looking to streamline their account management teams, particularly in Europe, there's been lots of changes there. But in terms of CRaP and how vendors are impacted, what's your prediction in terms of what's going to happen?
Will Haire
Yeah, if I only had that crystal ball, that's for sure. You're spot on. Andy Jassy, since he took over, has been on an efficiency role. between increasing prices and making things a little difficult for sellers. I don't foresee that changing. I think CRaP policy, it won't change that much in the sense of how it works now. But I do see it being used a lot more by Amazon. And really, Amazon is going to incentivize brands to have the right product mix based on the category and based on the data it has as vendor accounts.
So I think we're going to continue seeing just more CRaP policies roll out, or more brands get caught in the CRaP policy that are selling on Vendor Central. And a way to kind of be proactive is look into at first ask your Vendor Manager. If you have a Vendor Manager, they have ways of reducing your freight or programs you could be a part of that could help alleviate some of those costs. But if not, consider programs like your SOIC ships in its own container as ways to kind of alleviate some of those burdens because it's coming one way or another. So, the more proactive you can be inside the account, the better.
Paul Sonneveld
Fantastic. Well, Will, thank you so much. We are out of time. So we're going to have to wrap it up. Really appreciate you jumping on today and sharing all of your knowledge and your client experience when it comes to demystifying the topic of CRaP, cannot realize a profit and talking to us about some of the strategies to avoid it or to address it when it does happen. to you as a vendor. For anyone's watching live, or maybe on demand after, that maybe want to continue the conversation with you, pick your brain on a few things, you know, what is the best way to get in touch with you?
Will Haire
Beautiful. Yeah, check man, I'm LinkedIn, I'm very active, I post something almost every day, we share a lot of seller news, for example, Will Haire like on your head with an E, I'm pretty easy to find, so we'd love to catch you there. And if you're interested, we have a newsletter we put out every other week, and it's on all the news and how it affects sellers and what they could do to be proactive. We cover both Seller Central, Vendor Central, and Walmart news.
Paul Sonneveld
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Will. Take care.
Will Haire
Paul, thanks for having me. Cheers.
Paul Sonneveld
All right, everyone, that is it for today's enlightening episode on Amazon's Cannot Realize a Profit, and more importantly, how to address it, and what to do about it as an Amazon vendor.
Now, if you are hungry for more, don't forget to visit our video on demand library and our website for a treasure trove of Amazon vendor insights. And of course, if you are a vendor and you're aiming to streamline your analytics to gain sharper insights around profitability, net PPM, where you might be at risk, feel free to reach out to us and discover how MerchantSpring can help transform your journey.
Last, I'm all ears about what you as an audience want to hear next. I want to make sure that the content we deliver to you every week is valuable, actionable, and practical. So if you have a topic in mind or something you really want to know more about, please drop me a note on LinkedIn, and I will find the right speaker to tackle that topic. Until next time, keep thriving, keep innovating, and thank you so much for listening. Take care.
